点数 32・一般日麻の計算式

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/02(Sun) 主人様： 現行の点数計算方法 a=m×2^(n+2)。 I cannot find out who set this important Formula. he（she）is a chinese，a japanese，or a american？ My search proved fruitless. Can u tell me who is he（she）？

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/03(Mon) 主人様: My japanese is so poor! 点数計算方法 a=m×2^(n+2)，this formula is one of the base for reach mahjong， its history should not be forget,so i want to find out the man&the period. 心より御礼申し上げます！ Thanks!

あさみ 投稿日：2012/12/04(Tue) Hello Mr.rrmm The history of the mark calculation is very complicated. I cannot easily explain it. However, if I say daringly first half(a=m×2^) maked chinese. It was completed's about 1900A.D.in China. And latter half((n+2) maked many japanese. It was completed's about 1955A.D.in Japan.

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/05(Wed) Hello Mr.あさみ Very thanks for ur work. My several questions below: The mark calculation is so complicated, Set a=m×2^ maybe easy but set (n+2) is very hard. the setters must have the knowledge of maths. they must be intellectuals. Then,who are these "many japanese" and why this calculation was changed to (n+2)? 翻訳苦労,皆様に感谢!!

あさみ 投稿日：2012/12/06(Thu) Hello rrmm. >Then,who are these "many japanese" and why this calculation was changed to (n+2)? It is to increase numerical value provided in the first half more. The reason to make big is for money. # By mahjong a=Amount of money >Set a=m×2^ maybe easy but set (n+2) is very hard. Probably many Japanese think set a = m×2^ very hard. But set (n+2) is easy. ∵ The numerical value that m fluctuates every time It is troublesome to calculate every time But et (n+2) is The fixed number

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/06(Thu) Hi rrmm, Let me make clear the point of your question. You wrote: > Set a=m×2^ maybe easy but set (n+2) is very hard. You mean, you are most interested in why the calculating formula adopts 2^(n+2), instead of simple 2^n, aren't you? あさみさん どうも一番の疑問は「バンバン」（場２ゾロっていうんですっけ？）のようです。 上では、その点を確認する質問をしてます。 僕の記憶では確かあれって、花札の八八の「大場・絶場」から来てるんじゃなかった でしたっけ？

あさみ 投稿日：2012/12/06(Thu) > どうも一番の疑問は「バンバン」（場２ゾロっていうんですっけ？）のようです。 　その意味でレスポンスしたつもりですが、英文が変でしたか(^-^； ＃場ゾロを説明するのは大変なので、「定数」というような表現にしました。 > 僕の記憶では確かあれって、花札の八八の「大場・絶場」から来てるんじゃなかったでしたっけ？ もちろん関連があると思いますが、「来てる」と云いきってしまうと言い過ぎかもです。 http://www9.plala.or.jp/majan/tre3.html

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/06(Thu) > Hi rrmm, > Let me make clear the point of your question. You wrote: > > Set a=m×2^ maybe easy but set (n+2) is very hard. > You mean, you are most interested in why the calculating formula adopts > 2^(n+2), instead of simple 2^n, aren't you? That's perfectly correct.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/08(Sat) Hi rrmm, I'm waiting for the answer from Mr あさみ, so am not sure if I'm correct in detail. Anyway, at a point in the Japanese history of Mah-jong (I don't know when, and that's what I asked him) the following rule was added. At the beginning of each deal two dice were thrown, and when they showed a doublet the score at that deal was doubled; especially when the dice showed the doublet of 1 or 6, the score was quadrupled. That rule might have come from 八八 played with 花札 playing cards, where all the scores were doubled or quadrupled under a certain condition (by the way the game was incredibly popular at that time). Anyway the rule was accepted also in Mah-jong because it made players excited, giving them chance to get big money. But later (by 1950) the rule was eventually altered to be that all the scores were quadrupled. This is the origin of the "+2" part of 2^(n+2) in the formula. As a result the least score the winner of a deal got became 960 points, which was almost 1,000 points. Actually we get 1,000, not 960, points, when we go out with a hand of least value. This is very convenient, you know, the basic score being 1,000 points. I guess it might be one of the reasons the m×2^(n+2) formula became popular. I hope this information will help you.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) 　すいません。場ゾロのもとになった、サイコロを振ってゾロ目が出たらその局は得点を２倍にするというルールがいつから始まったかについてはあさみさんからの回答待ちだと書いてしまいました。ご回答よろしくお願いいたします。 　それから「バンバンを加えると最低点が960点、これはおおよそ1000点。つまりたまたま基本点が1000点となって計算しやすくなったのもバンバンが普及した理由じゃないかと私は推測している」と書いてしまったんですが、どうでしょう？ 個人的には間違いではないと思っているのですが……。

あさみ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) ども、Cｒさん >ゾロ目が出たらその局は得点を２倍にするというルールが いつから 第二次大戦後であることは確かですが、 もとより混沌の中から生まれたルールなので、発生日や発生場所の特定は不可能です。実際、σ(-_-)もよく分かりません。 しかし大胆かつ独断的に想像するなら、「振りサイの目による得点の倍増」ルールの発生は1945〜1950、場所は大阪のブーマン横町かも知れません。 ＃なんせ当時の大阪は、新奇ルールの発祥地でしたから。 その趣向が振りサイ時の興奮を呼び、見る間に全国に普及していったのかも知れません。 そしてσ(-_-)が麻雀を本格的に覚えた1966A.D.頃、東京の学生間では振りサイに関係なく、「常に両翻プラス」で行われていました。 そこでルールの発生を1945〜1950とし、1966には定着とするのであれば、大いに普及したのは1955年頃ではないかと思う次第です。 >It was completed's about 1955A.D.in Japan. それでrrmmさんへのレスでは >It was completed's about 1955A.D.in Japan. とコメントしたのですが、分かりにくかったですか(^-^； であれば今回のσ(-_-)のレスを元に、Ｃrさんがフォローして頂ければありがたいです。 それにしても、結局 rrmmさんがもっとも知りたかったのは「場ゾロの歴史」だったということなのかな？ >つまりたまたま基本点が1000点となって σ(-_-)も「関連している」と思います。 実際 鳴きピンフのロンアガリも、問答無用の千点アガリとなっているくらいですから。 とは云うものの、場ゾロ普及の過程で「最低千点」というわかり易さが どの程度 作用したのかは神のみぞ知るというところですね(^-^；

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) あさみさん、ご回答ありがとうございます。 > しかし大胆かつ独断的に想像するなら、「振りサイの目による得点の倍増」ルールの発生は1945〜1950、場所は大阪のブーマン横町かも知れません。 あ、嘘を書いてしまった。(^^;;　訂正せねば。 > そこでルールの発生を1945〜1950とし、1966には定着とするのであれば、大いに普及したのは1955年頃ではないかと思う次第です。 じゃあバンバンって意外と新しいルールなんですね！ > それにしても、結局 rrmmさんがもっとも知りたかったのは「場ゾロの歴史」だったということ？ rrmmさんの発言からは、「翻数の分だけ倍々計算するならまだしも、（翻数＋２）乗するってのはすごく複雑ですよね？　なんで＋２？　そのルールはいつ頃から定着したの？」というのが一番の疑問だったみたいです。

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) > ∵ The numerical value that m fluctuates every time > It is troublesome to calculate every time > But set (n+2) is The fixed number. 浅見了様 You are right,set a = m×2^ hard,but set (n+2) is easy. 「常に両翻プラス」donot affect its structure.I got it wrong. BUT 得点計算 completely confesses me and makes me lose faith in reach-mahjong.

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) > At the beginning of each deal two dice were thrown, and when they showed a > doublet the score at that deal was doubled; especially when the dice showed > the doublet of 1 or 6, the score was quadrupled. Ohhh，It's quite common in China，so I think it was affected not by 花札 playing cards,but by gambling.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) Dear rrmm, Mr あさみ says he is not sure the exact history of the calculating formula, either. He points out, however, the following two facts: 1. As I told you in [3529], there was a rule where the score at a deal was doubled if the two dice were thrown at the beginning of that deal and showed a doublet (the score was quadrupled when they showed the doublet of 1 or 6). That rule was born after World War II. 2. The rule where the score was always quadrupled (i.e. it was always calculated according to the m×2^(n+2) formula) was established by 1966 at latest. (Let me correct a mistake. I wrote in [3529] that the rule was established "by 1950", but that is wrong.) Considering these facts, Mr あさみ suggests that the rule no.1 might have been born between 1945-50, possibly in Osaka, and that the rule no.2 might have spread around 1955. We are afraid we can tell you nothing more exact, because we have no evidence. I hope this answer will satisfy you.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) Hi rrmm, > Ohhh，It's quite common in China，so I think it was affected not by 花札 playing cards,but by gambling. Yes, also in China the two dice are thrown at the beginning. That's true. But where did the idea come that the score was doubled or quadrupled under a certain condition? This rule is just like the one adopted in 八八 played with 花札, so I guess the former might have come from the latter, and there would be high possibility. That's my idea. But I may be wrong.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) Hi rrmm, > BUT 得点計算 completely confesses me and makes me lose faith in reach-mahjong. Ah, yes, the calculation is really confusing. Actually Japanese players don't calculate according to the formula! We just know some numbers by heart. If m = 30, then 子(散家): 1000-2000-3900-7700 親(荘家): 1500-2900-5800-11600 If m = 40, then 子: 1300-2600-5200 親: 2000-3900-7700 For 七対子 you should know: 子: 1600-3200-6400 親: 2400-4800-9600 You will get used to these numbers soon, and that's much easier than calculating!

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) 得点計算 1飜 2m(8m) 2飜 4m(16m) 3飜 8m(32m) 4飜 16m(64m) 満貫 We can see Beacuse「常に両翻プラス」 was added,the multiplier is too big,so count the points by mental arithmetic become very hard. そして10の位を切り上げる,then we can round it up to a whole number. BUT how to rember?

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) > Dear rrmm, > Mr あさみ says he is not sure 〜 > We are afraid we can tell you nothing more exact, because we have no evidence. I hope this answer will satisfy you. A good summary ,thank U!

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/09(Sun) > Hi rrmm, > Ah, yes, the calculation is really confusing. Actually Japanese players 〜 > You will get used to these numbers soon, and that's much easier than calculating! I know this is 得点早見表. EASTtsumo&EASTron&Othertsumo&Otherron,i think its too complicated!Only when m = 30 or 40,i can remember.

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/10(Mon) Hi rrmm, > I know this is 得点早見表. > EASTtsumo&EASTron&Othertsumo&Otherron,i think its too complicated!Only when m = 30 or 40,i can remember. All you have to remember is as follows. Just memorize them, like a poem! 子 千・二千・三九・七七 一三・二六・五二 一六・三二・六四 親 一五・二九・五八・一一六 二千・三九・七七 二四・四八・九六 Not very hard, is it? Good luck!

rrmm 投稿日：2012/12/13(Thu) Dear Mr.CR, > All you have to remember is as follows. Just memorize them, like a poem! > 子 > 千・二千・三九・七七 > 一三・二六・五二 > 一六・三二・六四 > > 親 > 一五・二九・五八・一一六 > 二千・三九・七七 > 二四・四八・九六 > > Not very hard, is it? Good luck! I also think its not so easy, (30,60),(40,80),(25,50,100),these 3 often groups in ur poem, but 70,90,110 those 3 rare groups not in. We must expend the double energy to remember,that's a problem.Why so much "切り上げる" wasnot help the scoring system more simple,more visualable,why?

Cｒ 投稿日：2012/12/13(Thu) Dear rrmm, > (30,60),(40,80),(25,50,100),these 3 often groups in ur poem, > but 70,90,110 those 3 rare groups not in. No, they aren't. You are right. But they (i.e. 70, 90, and 110 case) are very, very rare. What is more, a going-out hand with 70符 exceeeds 8,000 points (that is, 満貫) with 3翻. So you have to calculate only when you have gone out with a hand of 70符 and 1 or 2翻. That's very, very, very rare. Actually I suspect many Japanese players are not able to calculate their point in such cases, but they don't seem to have any trouble. > Why so much "切り上げる" wasnot help the scoring system more simple,more visualable,why? I disagree. So much "切り上げ" helps make the scoring system quite simple. The older scoring system was much more complicated. The current scoring system is less complicated than you would expect. You would get used to that quite easily. If it was complicated too much for most people, Japanese reach mahjong could not have got popularity that much. But you think the current scoring system is still too much complicated, I have to admit that. I mean, it's not very difficult to memorize important numbers that are often used in the system, but quite difficult to figure out the meaning of the scoring system and to actually calculate the correct score, not to just remember a memorized number. That's why some people have tried to improve the scoring system, just like that used in 純麻雀.